the new "air" car. (runs on air)

[onmyresolve]

yes. India has made a prototype and it is launching its commercial debut. my friend is planning to buy one in India and ship it to the us because its coming out to the us in 2 years..here are some links about it.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4217016.html

also a youtube video. sorry about youtube. i know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm8RCww3cUY&feature=related

i don't know about this. its pretty fucking loud.
the models don't look very good. however, its for the price of no gas.

[SLP]

It's only $5,100

I'd still prefer electric. Far more range and safer. Imagine the 300 bar tank rupturing, Sure it is made from composites, but if you are sitting on an air stream that powerful it has to do some damage.

[deus-redux]

but if you are sitting on an air stream that powerful it has to do some damage.

This has always concerned me with regard to any vehicle that uses a compressed gas. In an accident, there's the potential for an exploding canister to be lethal.

-deus-

[AxisMundi]

It's only $5,100

I'd still prefer electric. Far more range and safer. Imagine the 300 bar tank rupturing, Sure it is made from composites, but if you are sitting on an air stream that powerful it has to do some damage.

I'd rather be sitting on compressed air than hydrogen, or a pile of batteries.

[SLP]

I'd rather be sitting on compressed air than hydrogen, or a pile of batteries.

What is the problem with a battery? Sure some can be dangerous, but lithium-polymer batteries are very safe.

An alternative is ultracapacitors. Currently they don't have the energy density of a chemical battery, but in the past 10 or so years the capacitance of capacitors has increased dramatically. Also they can be charged almost instantaneously and can power large motors since they can be discharged almost instantaneously as well.

[AxisMundi]

What is the problem with a battery? Sure some can be dangerous, but lithium-polymer batteries are very safe.

An alternative is ultracapacitors. Currently they don't have the energy density of a chemical battery, but in the past 10 or so years the capacitance of capacitors has increased dramatically. Also they can be charged almost instantaneously and can power large motors since they can be discharged almost instantaneously as well.

I wouldn't want to be around a car accident that involves one car on fire, mangled with or near a car that is essentially a giant battery.

[SLP]

I wouldn't want to be around a car accident that involves one car on fire, mangled with or near a car that is essentially a giant battery.

Why is that? I mentioned it could use lithium-polymer batteries which don't catch fire anywhere near as easily as normal lithium batteries. There are also ultracapacitors which are made from non-flammable metals.

[AxisMundi]

Why is that? I mentioned it could use lithium-polymer batteries which don't catch fire anywhere near as easily as normal lithium batteries. There are also ultracapacitors which are made from non-flammable metals.

Water + crushed/extremely hot/on fire batteries... just doesn't seem like a good idea. *shrugs* Maybe I'm ill-informed... but riding around on a giant battery just seems like a bad idea.

[SLP]

Water + crushed/extremely hot/on fire batteries... just doesn't seem like a good idea. *shrugs* Maybe I'm ill-informed... but riding around on a giant battery just seems like a bad idea.

Unless you are talking about ill-kept lead acid or some lithium batteries none are flammable. Even so do you think sitting on top of 70L of petrol is a good idea?

[DarkMage35]

An alternative is ultracapacitors. Currently they don't have the energy density of a chemical battery, but in the past 10 or so years the capacitance of capacitors has increased dramatically. Also they can be charged almost instantaneously and can power large motors since they can be discharged almost instantaneously as well.You fool! Suggesting a power storage mechanism that can potentially discharge in (more or less) one great ZAP!

I'd still prefer electric. Far more range and safer. Imagine the 300 bar tank rupturing, Sure it is made from composites, but if you are sitting on an air stream that powerful it has to do some damage.That, of course, is why you design the car so that any such air stream will never reach the occupants unless the crash is so severe that you have other more important problems to worry about. But if youre squeamish, I believe wikipedia has a reference somewhere on exactly how much air pressure is required to do lovely things like pop eyeballs from sockets, blow up stomachs through navels, etc.

Oh, and MDI deals in vaporware. Seriously, check their history.

[SLP]

You fool! Suggesting a power storage mechanism that can potentially discharge in (more or less) one great ZAP!


Conventional fuels can be burnt in one great fire.

There are only two ways ultracaps can be threatening to people that I can think of:
1. If the terminals on the caps come in contact with the person. This can be negated by operating at a lower voltage. (I think this will have to happen because mechanics and people fiddling with their car will get fried. It's a real problem with the Prius as it operates at around 280V. Using a voltage of less than 110V is ideal and still practical)
2. Caps short on the car body and release burning metal. The amount of molten metal would be small and only for a brief period of time so it shouldn't be too dangerous.

You have to remember that the caps will be in a protected compartment. It is very safe.

[nau06248]

What is the point in it though? What will you gain in the grand scheme of things?

How are you going to pressurize the air? The point of an alternative powered car is to illiminate the need for fossil fuels. With this car you are just making it someone elses problem.

I am completly against this car.

1. If the terminals on the caps come in contact with the person. This can be negated by operating at a lower voltage. (I think this will have to happen because mechanics and people fiddling with their car will get fried. It's a real problem with the Prius as it operates at around 280V. Using a voltage of less than 110V is ideal and still practical)

12 Volt is still pretty fucking sore. 110V is still pretty severe and I imagine still leathal. I know I'm actually solidifying your ultimate point here but STFU.

[DarkMage35]

What is the point in it though? What will you gain in the grand scheme of things?

How are you going to pressurize the air? The point of an alternative powered car is to illiminate the need for fossil fuels. With this car you are just making it someone elses problem. That is of course the entire idea. Except for efficient solar panelling (ha! good luck waiting for that) the best you can do is make the energy source for cars carbon-neutral, shifting the problem to centralised much-easier-to-deal-with elsewheres.

[SLP]

12 Volt is still pretty fucking sore. 110V is still pretty severe and I imagine still leathal. I know I'm actually solidifying your ultimate point here but STFU.

12V does nothing if it passes through your body. Your body has too high resistance. It would only be sore if it melted a piece of the car and that hit you.

110V is generally non-lethal. That's why the USA uses 110V for power. I know it can still kill you and it is not safe to play with. In the near future electrical power in cars will be at 36V. I don't know why they decided to make the move. 36V is definitely non-lethal. It is also enough voltage to have reasonable sized cables to power motors to propel the car.

[Runaway_Stapler]

What is the point in it though? What will you gain in the grand scheme of things?

How are you going to pressurize the air? The point of an alternative powered car is to illiminate the need for fossil fuels. With this car you are just making it someone elses problem.

I am completly against this car.



12 Volt is still pretty fucking sore. 110V is still pretty severe and I imagine still leathal. I know I'm actually solidifying your ultimate point here but STFU.

You're centralizing pollution. Sure, it's still powered by fossil fuels, but you can't expect to get rid of those instantly now can you? Not to mention electric cars are pulling charge from the same fucking plants as air compressors. And changing the fuel source for a powerplant is a fuckload easier than changing all the fucking cars in america. Electrostatic precipitators and all of the other pollution control devices are also a lot easier to manufacture than millions of catalytic converters, which brings up another good point:

MOST POLLUTION COMES FROM MANUFACTURING. Air powered cars are incredibly simple[therefore easy to fix], and steel is far more earth friendly than the cocktails of chemicals in modern batteries. Not too mention a fuckload cheaper* and longer lasting**.

*There's a reason Prius's use Ni-cad and not lithium. It's incredibly expensive, and though I'm not certain, I'd imagine that these new "safe" lithium polymer batts are even more expensive.
**All batteries die. Until we have one that doesn't, compressed air wins, as an air tank is infinitely rechargable and loses no capacity over time. Vs batteries you'd have to replace every few years that leak concentrated chemicals into the environment from landfills as they decompose.

[SLP]

You're centralizing pollution. Sure, it's still powered by fossil fuels, but you can't expect to get rid of those instantly now can you? Not to mention electric cars are pulling charge from the same fucking plants as air compressors. And changing the fuel source for a powerplant is a fuckload easier than changing all the fucking cars in america. Electrostatic precipitators and all of the other pollution control devices are also a lot easier to manufacture than millions of catalytic converters, which brings up another good point:

There are a lot of things the government can do. I come from Australia, but I think in the USA most power stations are privately owned. That is a pretty big problem. I can imagine the number of blackouts and problems it causes.

Climate change is the biggest example of market failure. In places such as the USA it is difficult to sell electricity that comes from renewable sources cheaply.

However in Australia where most power stations are publicly owned, we can produce power at a cheap price that is also clean. They don't (that is for other reasons than climate change namely incompetence). It can be gotten rid of instantly since the coal fired power stations in NSW are near 'hot rocks' which can be used for geothermal power.

In the near future in every industrialized country it will be cheaper to produce renewable energy than fossil fuel powered.

*There's a reason Prius's use Ni-cad and not lithium. It's incredibly expensive, and though I'm not certain, I'd imagine that these new "safe" lithium polymer batts are even more expensive.
**All batteries die. Until we have one that doesn't, compressed air wins, as an air tank is infinitely rechargable and loses no capacity over time. Vs batteries you'd have to replace every few years that leak concentrated chemicals into the environment from landfills as they decompose.

1. It is not incredibly expensive. THIS (http://www.thunder-sky.com/home_en.asp) business produces lithium ion batteries for a cheaper price than lead acid.
2. Compressed gas tanks do die. Have you ever owned a propane tank for a barbeque? There is a maximum life for tanks since they undergo fatigue each time they are pressurized and depressurized. Lithium ion batteries can survive far more cycles than Ni-Cad or NIMH. They have negligible environmental impact.

[Runaway_Stapler]

There are a lot of things the government can do. I come from Australia, but I think in the USA most power stations are privately owned. That is a pretty big problem. I can imagine the number of blackouts and problems it causes.

Climate change is the biggest example of market failure. In places such as the USA it is difficult to sell electricity that comes from renewable sources cheaply.

However in Australia where most power stations are publicly owned, we can produce power at a cheap price that is also clean. They don't (that is for other reasons than climate change namely incompetence). It can be gotten rid of instantly since the coal fired power stations in NSW are near 'hot rocks' which can be used for geothermal power.

In the near future in every industrialized country it will be cheaper to produce renewable energy than fossil fuel powered.

Fuck this country, I'm bailing when I graduate college. Canada seems like the place for me. I feel like all of this stuff could easily be accomplished if we focused on things besides blowing terrorists [more so civilians] into little tiny pieces. I'm sick of stupid people wasting money on retarded things when we could easily use our budget to improve our quality of life. I agree with the above stuff, if it is not clear enough.


1. It is not incredibly expensive. THIS (http://www.thunder-sky.com/home_en.asp) business produces lithium ion batteries for a cheaper price than lead acid.
2. Compressed gas tanks do die. Have you ever owned a propane tank for a barbeque? There is a maximum life for tanks since they undergo fatigue each time they are pressurized and depressurized. Lithium ion batteries can survive far more cycles than Ni-Cad or NIMH. They have negligible environmental impact.

[1] Didn't see prices, maybe I'm just retarded. Link?
[2] I fill propane tanks 16-18 hours a week at work. They have a life of 12 years, cost $35 unfilled, and we send off the old tanks to be reworked into new ones on a weekly basis. Steel and brass are really easy to melt down into something else or leave on the side of the road to decay [well brass won't for a while, but it's not hurting anything]. Carbon fiber/resins and such are a different story, as they are used for the tanks in cars, however if we can make a propane tank that will last for 12 years for $35, we could surely make an automotive-scaled composite tank that could last 50 years for a reasonable price.

This brought up another point in my argument. When your air-car won't run for some reason, it's really easy to find the problem. It's only valves, hoses, tanks, and the motor, and even then there really aren't that many things going on when you floor the pedal. An electric circuit will shut down with one break, and it could be really hard to find out where that is.

More to come, i gots to go sleeps

And any links on disposing of those new li-ions? I'd be quite happy if they were biodegradable with no toxins and such.

[SLP]

I can't remember where I saw prices, but I'm sure it was Thunder Sky that was producing Li ion batteries fairly cheaply.

I think a more valid comparison is how much would a tank to store enough energy to power a car a certain distance versus a battery. Do you know where to get such figures?

Repairing an electrical circuit is just as easy if not easier than compressed air. All of the microcontrollers are cheap enough that they can be replaced not repaired. The larger components and wires can be repaired very easily. Fault finding is pretty similar in both systems.

Searching for environmental impact I came across this: http://www.zeva.com.au/forum.php?category=2&thread=35
During each cycle the battery slowly wears out due to this reaction Li+ + LiCoO2 -> Li2O +CoO
What that site says is that there are businesses out there that convert the lithium oxide back into lithium for $700-800 for a car sized battery.

Environmental impact of lithium ion batteries is small http://www.batteryuniversity.com/print-partone-20.htm

[Runaway_Stapler]

I can't remember where I saw prices, but I'm sure it was Thunder Sky that was producing Li ion batteries fairly cheaply.

I think a more valid comparison is how much would a tank to store enough energy to power a car a certain distance versus a battery. Do you know where to get such figures?

I shall look! The size definitely affects the cost and such, so it's worth checking out. I've seen reports of air cars going 1000+ miles per charge, but that's likely bullshit. 125 was a claim from a company that has actually made some, though I don't know if it's been tested. With proper physics, it seems like it would be quite easy to say a [volume] tank at [pressure] can run a [number]% efficiency air motor to push a [weight]lb car this many miles. I'll ask my physics teacher tomorrow how to figure it out.

Should I get funding at some point, I'd like to attempt constructing an air car to see how much tech is actually involved. I also am fairly confident that an air car could be made that would run indefinitely [aside from parts that wear out such as suspension, tires, the tank, etc.], although if they were mass produced they would most likely not be built to such tolerances.


Repairing an electrical circuit is just as easy if not easier than compressed air. All of the microcontrollers are cheap enough that they can be replaced not repaired. The larger components and wires can be repaired very easily. Fault finding is pretty similar in both systems.

I don't know very much about electronics, so you clearly are more knowledgeable than me. I'd like to add, however, that in general electronics are built to be thrown away. Not that they couldn't be built to last, but I don't have very much faith in them. Stupid note-Throwing away microcontrollers is just more crap piling up [though incredibly minimal]. And I was reading in the politics forum about the precious metal supplies dwindling, could that be a problem.

Edit- From what I know when a circuit is broken, your car will not respond at all to be turned on, dead or alive kinda thing. Pneumatic systems would seem to have more symptoms when they're going down hill, like sputtering or responding slower if a valve sticks or hissing from a leak, etc. Thoughts?


Searching for environmental impact I came across this: http://www.zeva.com.au/forum.php?category=2&thread=35
During each cycle the battery slowly wears out due to this reaction Li+ + LiCoO2 -> Li2O +CoO
What that site says is that there are businesses out there that convert the lithium oxide back into lithium for $700-800 for a car sized battery.

Environmental impact of lithium ion batteries is small http://www.batteryuniversity.com/print-partone-20.htm

Is the conversion efficient and green? Link to company? I believe they do it, just want to verify it's good.

Note- Would you agree biodiesel is a decent energy medium as well?
Read-The World Without Us-Makes you reconsider anything with plastic in it.

And thank you for being a level headed person. I like calm debates. :)

[SLP]

Stupid note-Throwing away microcontrollers is just more crap piling up [though incredibly minimal]. And I was reading in the politics forum about the precious metal supplies dwindling, could that be a problem.

What about recycling? When you go to some mobile phone retailers nowadays they have bins where you can discard electronic goods. Something like 150g of gold can be recovered from one tonne of mobile phones.

Anyway the average microcontroller will probably outlive the car.

Edit- From what I know when a circuit is broken, your car will not respond at all to be turned on, dead or alive kinda thing. Pneumatic systems would seem to have more symptoms when they're going down hill, like sputtering or responding slower if a valve sticks or hissing from a leak, etc. Thoughts?

It is still easier to fault find electronic circuits. Generally what the repairer will do is turn it on and work backwards from what is not working by testing the voltage across varying parts of the circuit.

With pneumatics the circuit won't work either when there is a break in it.

I doubt a pneumatic system would outlive an electric one. Since electric systems have only one moving part, I can't see there being much need for repairs. The only problems could come from thermal expansion then fatigue. In pneumatic systems, not only are the motors more complex, but also the regulators, valves etc all have moving parts.

Note- Would you agree biodiesel is a decent energy medium as well?

Emphasis on decent. If it is using waste it is a good idea, otherwise not.

Diesel is made from long carbon chains so the ratio of carbon to hydrogen is high. So less energy is coming from hydrogen than in say octane. That means for the same amount of energy diesel will produce more carbon dioxide.

With methyl ester (a large part of biodiesel) that ratio is lower.

So by running a car on biodiesel it will be emitting less carbon dioxide.

Now there are two reasons why I hate biodiesel produced directly from crops:
Firstly, it creates food shortages. We live in a world where there is not enough food to feed everyone. Yes the problem is that there are too many people, but this thread is not about that. I'm not sure about this: soybean takes a lot of water to grow. It is also a smart idea for Brazilian businessmen to cut down the rainforest to plant soybean.

Secondly it is not the best solution. As mentioned in this thread electric or pneumatic cars are far better than biodiesel.

[Runaway_Stapler]

Alright, well you pretty much win, IF li-ions really are that good. All I know is that basically all of the tech for air cars already exists. Not on a shelf at the hardware store, but it's been done piece by piece in other places and there's nothing in limbo.
I'd say one of the main reasons I'm put off by electric is because most every electric thing I've purchased has broken. Stupid plastic tabs for a cover break, batteries corrode and now the thing gives errors, r/c cars lose charge, comps are obsolete.... Our throwaway society and the pace of technology means all these cheap gadgets get trashed, and I'm so used to electronic [not to mention plastic, which I fucking hate, yet love] shit sucking balls that it's hard to imagine a solid reliable car that'll keep running 5, 10, 20 years down the road. I know the air car could. I'm not saying it's impossible the electric will, but as of yet, no dice. I suppose we'll see how it plays out.

[SLP]

Yeah there is a lot of electric crap that fails. Most things that use compressed air are reliable because they need to be safe, whereas with 12V it can't do anything bad.

Satellites last years without repair in pretty crap conditions and they are electronic.

I see what you are getting at though.

[Runaway_Stapler]

Yeah as long as you understand what my reasoning is. Seems unlikely at this point we could make a solid EV that'll last, and air just seems workable. On the subject of biodiesel, algal biodeisel is the bomb, and if that works out I'd love to partner a small biodeisel engine with a compressed air motor, so it heats up the air as it expands and such. Could be a promising hybrid, we'll seeeeeeeee.

Hopefully I'll just make one!

[SLP]

Yeah as long as you understand what my reasoning is. Seems unlikely at this point we could make a solid EV that'll last, and air just seems workable. On the subject of biodiesel, algal biodeisel is the bomb, and if that works out I'd love to partner a small biodeisel engine with a compressed air motor, so it heats up the air as it expands and such. Could be a promising hybrid, we'll seeeeeeeee.

Hopefully I'll just make one!

Sounds interesting. Keep us posted.

Biodiesel still emits carbon dioxide. There needs to be a more permanent solution. Maybe for the short term biodiesel will work, but there are too many problems with long term use.

[Danger]

An alternative is ultracapacitors. Currently they don't have the energy density of a chemical battery, but in the past 10 or so years the capacitance of capacitors has increased dramatically. Also they can be charged almost instantaneously and can power large motors since they can be discharged almost instantaneously as well.

I met this old fucker a couple years back, who to this day, claims to know how to build an engine powered with capacitators.. He goes into extreme detail whenever he brings up the subject and says if he had the cash to develope his idea he'd be a millionaire... He claimed to have figured it out after finding a way instantly steal enough power for an entire growsean, and using it to grow a good 20-100lb's of marijuana on several occasions.... I know for a fact the guy used to supply the city im living in with weed for a good 10+ years, I've met people who've seen his operation also..

I posted a thread about this dude and his idea maby a year and a half ago , everyone said it was impossible.. very interesting....

[SLP]

I met this old fucker a couple years back, who to this day, claims to know how to build an engine powered with capacitators.. He goes into extreme detail whenever he brings up the subject and says if he had the cash to develope his idea he'd be a millionaire... He claimed to have figured it out after finding a way instantly steal enough power for an entire growsean, and using it to grow a good 20-100lb's of marijuana on several occasions.... I know for a fact the guy used to supply the city im living in with weed for a good 10+ years, I've met people who've seen his operation also..

I posted a thread about this dude and his idea maby a year and a half ago , everyone said it was impossible.. very interesting....

Are the marijuana grow op and the capacitor powered car two different technologies? What does he do that is different to regular capacitors?