Biofuel, why it is a bad thing

[EtherFreak]

Biofuels, such as biodiesel, and ethanol are a waste of time and resources. It is ignorant in my opinion to grow food, and plants for usage just as fuel. We should be searching for other alternatives to move our selfs around, and not grow crops for fuel.

I do believe in the case of French fryer grease, if it can get a second use out of it, as fuel, it is a great thing, for it is a byproduct. But to grow something to waste it as fuel? waste…

[gforce]

I agree, you can either feed the world or fuel it, not both. Much better to actually reduce the problem by reducing demand not just giving the patient another dose of the drug that is oil.

[Prometheus]

Still waiting on the enzymes that will break down cellulose to make ethanol. I agree, corn is a dead end technology, but at least we're getting an ethanol infrastructure in place for when we can produce cellulose based ethanol out of stuff like switchgrass.

[EtherFreak]

well, with switch grass, you still need to grow it, possibly water it, harvest it, and process it. and in the end, it still does not reduce the amount of emissions into the air. the only thing it does, is replace oil, but does not make the planet any cleaner overall.

[deus-redux]

it still does not reduce the amount of emissions into the air. the only thing it does, is replace oil, but does not make the planet any cleaner overall.

Everything that is released upon its combustion was absorbed by it as it grew. A constant cycle of grow-burn is physically neutral.

I agree, you can either feed the world or fuel it, not both.

We don't have a food shortage. People are starving purely because of socioeconomic reasons.

-deus-

[gforce]

We don't have a food shortage. People are starving purely because of socioeconomic reasons.

-deus-

I didn't say we had a food shortage but we will do if we convert a large portion of our crops to fuel.

[deus-redux]

I didn't say we had a food shortage but we will do if we convert a large portion of our crops to fuel.

Where I used to live, the farms would throw good food crops away, and fields would be left empty, purely so we complied with EU bollocks and had to import from the French. So don't tell me we don't have a vast surplus of food.

I'm not saying we can cover our current fuel usage with growing biofuels. But we can product enough to help if we lower demand as well.

-deus-

[gforce]

Where I used to live, the farms would throw good food crops away, and fields would be left empty, purely so we complied with EU bollocks and had to import from the French. So don't tell me we don't have a vast surplus of food.

I'm not saying we can cover our current fuel usage with growing biofuels. But we can product enough to help if we lower demand as well.

-deus-

So? This Country imports vast amounts of food, hardly a vast surplus, what makes it right just to comply with the EU and hence turn it into biofuels when we are importing food ourselves?

And actually world cereal consumption vs supply is extremely tight with stocks at their lowest levels for decades, no vast surplus.

[Prometheus]

I didn't say we had a food shortage but we will do if we convert a large portion of our crops to fuel.

We also feed a shitload of it to cattle.

I agree, you can either feed the world or fuel it, not both.

I don't disagree with this. If we were to try to run our whole country on ethanol, it would take most of our food crop acreage to do that.


Other reasons why corn sucks for fuel. Most of the biomass is unfermentable, corn depletes the soil, takes a lot of water, and requires a shitload of fertilizer.

[ma1zraa]

This thread should be titled CORN Biofuel, because most of the problems with ethanol we see today are due to the ass-backwards idea that we have to make it from corn. Fuck the farmers, do what makes sense

[Prometheus]

Agreed. We can get ethanol and biodesiel out of soy, but not at the same yields. Doesn't deplete the soil though, so it's a better mid-term solution until we can work with cellulose.

[Slave of the Beast]

One of Craig Venter's goals is to create economically viable hydrocarbon fuel producing bacteria. I believe if he doesn't achieve this someone else will, in the process making crop based biofuels obselete.

[grusomhat]

The problem with clearing fields to use them for corn and what-not is that every plant that has absorbed all that CO2 then releases it back into the air when it's cleared.


As people are saying. The solution is not to just replace oil but to reduce the demand for it. Yeah sure we do need another fuel and it would be great if we could come up with something that's neutral, but we need to reduce demand so that biofuels don't take over every field.

[Prometheus]

Properly managed, self fertilizing plants (like soybeans) will never deplete the soil. Trace minerals that are absorbed into the plant are actually wastes of the fuel production process, and can be put back in the fields. I specify self fertilizing plants, because of nitrogen depletion.

[tryptamine]

Well Prometheus, the time is now and the enzymes are here! In fact they have been here for a long time. The pilot plants have been built and have also shut down. there are many many patents and papers on the subject of cellulase derived from bacteria and fungi, many dozen potential organisms and at least 5 that have been developed semi commercially. The problem is that in the end, you are better off using a high sugar crop rather than a cellulose based crop because the extra bioreactor process is just extra unneeded capital. At least if you are growing a crop just for this purpose.

Cellulase has applications for converting waste fiber into liquid fuel but commerically we are a long way off from seeing that. Most waste fiber is burned for cogeneration (bagasse, wood waste) because liquid fuels arent that expensive yet.

Biofuels are a great idea, unfortunately there are simply too many people on this planet and to replace our petroleum energy needs we'd have to disfigure this planet with many times more industrial farmland, and even then I dont think we can replace it entirely with ehtanol and biodiesel. We NEED to, reduce our consumption AND reduce or at least cap the world population .

To the original poster: Its not a question of eating our food or making gas out of it, any fuel stock will always be grown on additional farmland. Its not like you are going to go to the grocery store and they will tell you that you cant buy your pizza pops all they have is ethanol. I find it interesting that you say that your vast and decadent food supply is more important to you than fuel. Fuel is what makes your lifestyle what it is, your food could be reduced to a meager fraction of what you consume and your life would be the same.

[Issue313]

I like the idea of seaweed or algae production of biofuel, because there's lots of open water to grow them in, and they potentially absorb a lot more sunlight than most land crops, which are very reflective.


Another idea would be to use a lot of wind turbines to make hydrogen and oxygen from water.

Hydrocarbons are an easy, convenient and compact way to store energy. I imagine batteries will win eventually though, but I don't see too many battery powered 747s around.

[Easy Going]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/19/science/19carb.html

[skidmeister927]

Everything that is released upon its combustion was absorbed by it as it grew. A constant cycle of grow-burn is physically neutral.

But the fuel used to harvest it makes it skewed.

It's apparent you haven't read anything on this besides on totse, just quit while you're a little behind.

[HeaT]

Still waiting on the enzymes that will break down cellulose to make ethanol. I agree, corn is a dead end technology, but at least we're getting an ethanol infrastructure in place for when we can produce cellulose based ethanol out of stuff like switchgrass.

quit waiting. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080310164901.htm

ethanol's a waste.

[Silverfuck]

I don't pretend to be any kind of genius at this sort of thing, bu t it seems to me that using bio-fuel, ethanol, and fuels made from organic material in general is far more sustainable than using natural gas.

Not to mention that the extraction, transport, trade, and use of natural gas causes a lot of complications. Wars are fought for oil, transporting crude oil internationally causes additional pollution, spills kill wildlife and destroy habitats, and a host of other problems. Eliminating the need for traditional fuel won't be a problem, because agricultural fuel is available to most countries and using it will eliminate the socio-economical problems the oil trade causes.

[Merdinus]

There's such a ridiculous amount of alternatives already, but there's no way this can work unless we get oil companies involved. They're too strong an opposition to not want them on our side.
I still think solar powered cells, with regular stations by motorways, and a national battery bank is the best idea.com pull in at the station, swap batteries for a tiny fee, move on. so many people hate the idea of their own solar panels, aesthetically, that this is the only way.

[thedotmaster]

well, with switch grass, you still need to grow it, possibly water it, harvest it, and process it. and in the end, it still does not reduce the amount of emissions into the air. the only thing it does, is replace oil, but does not make the planet any cleaner overall.

it doesnt make it any cleaner, but it doesnt make it any worse. they take in co2 when they grow, they release it when used.

[gforce]

it doesnt make it any cleaner, but it doesnt make it any worse. they take in co2 when they grow, they release it when used.

well plus the CO2 used in collecting the seeds, transporting them, ploughing the field, sowing the seeds, irrigating the field, spraying with fertilisers and pesticides (derived from hydrocarbons), then harvesting, transporting it to the processor, then processing it, then moving it to the filling station and finally pumping it into the car.

So not quite Carbon neutral.

[vazilizaitsev89]

Didn't the Brazilians use Sugar for theirs?

[TetrisHydraCanOfBeanOil]

I agree, you can either feed the world or fuel it, not both.

:rolleyes: Yes. because as we all know, its impossible to use grain for fuel AND food. it just defies the laws of physics.

What a fucking dumbass. I'm not even one of those weirdo hippie liberals that are into "save the environment" and even i realize your argument is plain retarded.

[gforce]

:rolleyes: Yes. because as we all know, its impossible to use grain for fuel AND food. it just defies the laws of physics.

Quite right, it is perfectly easy to use grain and food as a fuel.

However I was referring to the fact that food production is struggling to keep up even with today's - rapidly growing - demand (hence higher food prices). An attempt to convert even a relatively small percent of the worlds cars to biofuels would eat up a fairly substantial portion of our food production. Factor in climate change, degradation of soils etc.. and it is not that unlikely that food production may decrease in the coming years putting even further pressure on an already limited resource.

So the point I was saying is there is not enough production from agriculture to cover both bases entirely. Yes we can feed the world and at a stretch we would go a long way to fuelling the world from biofuels but not both at the same time. Of course there are plenty of figures out there which support what I have stated. For example to replace even 20% of petrol consumption in the US, we would need to use the entire US corn crop, which is one of the biggest harvests in the world. That is also excluding fuels such as diesel and aviation fuel. I am not saying that we should not use any biofuels, but the notion that it is going to replace a significant amount oil is misguided.

[KwinnieFuckingBogan]

I am subscribing to this thread.

(I support industrialised hemp, not that much for biofuels (I don't believe that ethanol based fuels are as promising as natural replacements for diesel are), but as a whole replacement of cotton crops. It's a superior product that's much less costly to produce than cotton, both financially and on the government - it's many uses such as cellulosic fuels would be a bonus.

Diesel engines, modified a little for the specific fuel, can run on just about any oil or fat, including animal fats though that wouldn't be very viable unless it suddenly became legal to 'harvest' Americans.

Switchgrass looks great because it's carbon neutral, and grows easily where very little else can grow with a lot of potential if we had to go down the ethanol fuels route, but how good is it really? IIRC additives will need to be developed to make ethanol go further because it's not as green as touted due to it's poor mileage.

None of the alternatives are in any way solutions :(.

- I have noticed though that I often see arguements against shit like potato (starch?) based fuels being unviable due to there not being enough land.. ...but the fact that potato crops can be grown vertically hasn't been mentioned at all.)

EDIT: @vazilizaitsev89: Yes they used sugar from which to make their ethanol, and that came from Sugar Cane, which is cut by hand by workers that are payed little enough for it to be affordable - don't cry foul though, at least they're getting an income they can live in, Brazil is rife with poverty so those workers aren't doing the worst. There are millions waiting to replace them if they decide to stop.

Unfortunately this isn't possible presently in the US due to labor rates which would drive the prices way the fuck up - damn those Unions for supporting members by pushing* for base wages that are enough to live on!

Mechanised farming could be the go though, and where you can't grow cane you could grow those 'beet' things.

As someone who once lived on a sugar cane plantation, I can vouch that any 'green' aspect to ethanol based fuels from sugar cane is quickly eaten away when it comes time to harvest - Sugar cane has to be burned first which puts insane amounts of particulates into the atmosphere.. ...and your lungs. It smells beautiful though :).


*Key word = pushing, they haven't really got there yet AFAIK due to certain political bullshit.
Don't get my messages confused though, those workers in Brazil may get a pittance but it's enough to put them above the average populace. But Brazil is a really big issue in itself, best not got into. The rich are extremely rich and the poor live in poverty that would put Uganda to shame.

[ZeroMalarki]

http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/eco/biofuel.html

This as long as it holds true, is a genius idea.

[gforce]

yes - i thought it was fairly well known that alot of diesel cars can run on straight vegetable oil -. However as he mentions in that article the consumption jumps straight up causing price rises. I read an article last week were Morrison's (a big supermarket chain) were starting in several stores to put a limit on how much you could buy, 2 litres at any time.

And it is alot of the time these people who are buying the veg oil that are moaning the most about food price rises. :rolleyes:

[Fanglekai]

I dont understand why oil companies don't just diversify and supply more fuels. Obviously they could afford it, and then they'd have an unlimited source of profits because when oil runs out they could just sell hydrogen fuel or whatever alternatives they want. Or they could run huge public relations campaigns like cigarette companies do. Show how they invest tons of money into making the world greener and cleaner. I suppose I'd just run the businesses differently. I'd want to have a hold on as many of the fuel markets as possible. If one company started monopolizing on some other fuel type then the others would quickly follow suit, I think. Just a thought.

[Demunic]

I dont understand why oil companies don't just diversify and supply more fuels. Obviously they could afford it, and then they'd have an unlimited source of profits because when oil runs out they could just sell hydrogen fuel or whatever alternatives they want. Or they could run huge public relations campaigns like cigarette companies do. Show how they invest tons of money into making the world greener and cleaner. I suppose I'd just run the businesses differently. I'd want to have a hold on as many of the fuel markets as possible. If one company started monopolizing on some other fuel type then the others would quickly follow suit, I think. Just a thought.

actually i believe chevron(an oil company apparently) is doing this.

and i also believe several other oil companies do as well. but chevron apparently(according to the magic box of numb) they do in fact produce hydrogen, electric, and other such natural power sources.


anyway, we have PLENTY of crop. we could use the fallow fields for self-replenishing crops such as that switchgrass.

personally im a huge fan of industrial hemp like KB, its a superior product to cotton, it grows fast, and im sure that we can use all parts of the plant for production as ive read there are different parts of the husk used for different things, like layers, one can be used for wood like applications(paper/plywood) another for cloth, and one for food(where you can turn it into a fuel) and this seems like it has some good potential in sustaining some crops as we can possibly replace several cotton crops for hemp and use the left over product for fuel. it wont cause a huge depression in fuel consumption, but it will definitely help and possibly have SOME impact. im not saying its the best thing to use, but again, multi-application, so we can shutoff any "what about the other crops we need for corn and food" ideas for a moment.

and we have PLENTY of corn...christ, we can export it plenty, or, use the wasted corn for fucking fuel. again, wont do much, but it WILL help. we arent using it for anything else(we cant) so why the hell not?

[Naga1337]

Ethanol... Take the 70% of the U.S. corn harvest that goes directly to cattle and produce dried distillers' grains and ethanol... You CAN have your cake and eat it. Or start growing higher sugar content crops on subsidized land/stop throwing food away to make the government happy, or do the cellulose-enzyme thing...

Either way, as long as can get 110+ octane fuel for cheaper than gasoline, I'm happy.

[inuteroteen]

Biofuels, such as biodiesel, and ethanol are a waste of time and resources. It is ignorant in my opinion to grow food, and plants for usage just as fuel. We should be searching for other alternatives to move our selfs around, and not grow crops for fuel.

I do believe in the case of French fryer grease, if it can get a second use out of it, as fuel, it is a great thing, for it is a byproduct. But to grow something to waste it as fuel? waste…

Giant contradiction here. Used fryer grease is Biodiesel. Biodiesel can be made from all kinds of waste. I live near a rendering plant that collects dead animals, entrails, fryer grease, etcetera and makes protein material used in animal feed and biodiesel.

[flatplat]

I've always liked the idea of biodiesel from algae, as it perhaps has the potential to be carbon neutral - http://www.starnewsgroup.com.au/story/52025. (http://www.starnewsgroup.com.au/story/52025)

Coupling it to the old brown coal plant (at La Trobe) wouldn't have been something I'd have thought of doing.
Unfortunately, there's still some discrepancies between projected yields (which sound marvelous) and what we have actually managed so far. :(

But GM pond scum could be a different story :)

[Obbe]

Look into hemp biofuel. Look into how little farm land it would take.

This should really piss you all off.

[moldykorn]

the only thing it does, is replace oil, but does not make the planet any cleaner overall.

I think the first step should be to get off the oil titty. We can work out the kinks of making it cleaner after that.

[alien5]

It's funny watching people in this thread try to pretend to know something.

[Volcanbaru]

....what about hemp??

[EtherFreak]

What about hemp? yes it could be used, but it still is the fact you are growing a crop, for use as fuel.

Now when I say biofuel is not any cleaner, what I mean is, you would have a crop for food, so the fact that the plant is cleaning the air, can not be taken into account, for you will still have a plant growing, for food, fuel or whatever you want it to be for.

I am not sure about the algae. it could be a source of fuel? I will need to research that one a little more.

[Demunic]

What about hemp? yes it could be used, but it still is the fact you are growing a crop, for use as fuel.

Now when I say biofuel is not any cleaner, what I mean is, you would have a crop for food, so the fact that the plant is cleaning the air, can not be taken into account, for you will still have a plant growing, for food, fuel or whatever you want it to be for.

I am not sure about the algae. it could be a source of fuel? I will need to research that one a little more.

well see atleast with hemp you can grab atleast 50% of the plant for MANY OTHER industrial uses ranging from wood products, clothing, and even food and plastics!

we can just scrap out the most-sugar-producing part and use the rest for whatevers left

going to sleep now, running off of riddlin pills for past two/three days....

[Volcanbaru]

well see atleast with hemp you can grab atleast 50% of the plant for MANY OTHER industrial uses ranging from wood products, clothing, and even food and plastics!

we can just scrap out the most-sugar-producing part and use the rest for whatevers left

going to sleep now, running off of riddlin pills for past two/three days....
^^^

and medical ;)

[Dark_Magneto]

We should be searching for other alternatives to move our selfs around, and not grow crops for fuel.

We can either feed ourselves or fuel ourselves. The two are mutually exclusive.

The only alternatives for moving ourselves around that we have which can actually work and be scaled are forms of mass transit like passenger rail and light rail. It's either that, or watch our transportation system go to hell as we obstinately refuse to do what is necessary due to idiotic entitlement mentality and run around in circles pursuing desperate non-solutions.

The transportation sector uses way too much energy and no alternative energy sources we have can replace more than a fraction of the energy we're now burning up via. fossil fuels. If we switch to mass forms of transit for the masses, it will solve the problem. Unfortunately that's not going to happen, so we're going to have to deal with the suffering that comes when you try to force something to work that is fundamentally flawed. Millions of people driving around in individual automobiles each burning up precious scarce valueable energy resources is fundamentally flawed. That's the entire reason we're having problems with oil right now. Talk of switching to alternatives like we're going to swap A for B and go about our merry way doesn't even pretend to address the underlying issue that caused the problem in the first place.

TL;DR version: THIS SHIT WILL NEVER WORK!

[tenyo]

Biofuels, such as biodiesel, and ethanol are a waste of time and resources. It is ignorant in my opinion to grow food, and plants for usage just as fuel. We should be searching for other alternatives to move our selfs around, and not grow crops for fuel.

I do believe in the case of French fryer grease, if it can get a second use out of it, as fuel, it is a great thing, for it is a byproduct. But to grow something to waste it as fuel? waste…


You're wrong on the part of biodiesel being a bad ideal. Biodiesel that's made from left over cooking oil is a good ideal. We don't have to grow anything extra to make it, because if a resturante is open then we already have what we need to produce the biodiesel. I do agree that growing corn and stuff just to make ethanol is bull shit. It's causing the price of all grain products to go through the roof.

[alien5]

the economy decides what fuel is/isn't viable. petroleum will only get more scarce, and when the price of petroleum fuels exceeds the price of bio-fuels, we'll have to cross over to using bio-fuels. it's as simple as that.
whether or not biodiesel is made from soybeans won't matter if it's a cheaper fuel than petro-diesel.

[gforce]

the economy decides what fuel is/isn't viable. petroleum will only get more scarce, and when the price of petroleum fuels exceeds the price of bio-fuels, we'll have to cross over to using bio-fuels. it's as simple as that.
whether or not biodiesel is made from soybeans won't matter if it's a cheaper fuel than petro-diesel.

But what happens when it is not just expensive but the supply is not physically there? Also by your thinking with so much land being devoted to fuel food prices would sky rocket hence undermining fuel production.

[ViperX202]

Biofuels, such as biodiesel, and ethanol are a waste of time and resources. It is ignorant in my opinion to grow food, and plants for usage just as fuel. We should be searching for other alternatives to move our selfs around, and not grow crops for fuel.

I do believe in the case of French fryer grease, if it can get a second use out of it, as fuel, it is a great thing, for it is a byproduct. But to grow something to waste it as fuel? waste…

corn and suchh prices more then doubledd ever since..

[Obbe]

How much open land exists over what are currently oil fields?

Back when farmers used to grow hemp crops, they would rotate the hemp with their shittier fields where food crops couldn't grow, because of a lack of nutrients or tough soil. Next season, farmers could plant food crops in those fields instead, as the hemp crops would restore the soil quality by breaking up the soil with extensive root systems and leaving behind lots of valuable nutrients.

Now, how much biomass does hemp produce compared to any other plant?

[Real.PUA]

Cellulosic ethanol:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/0704767105v1

540% energy gain, plus it isn't a food crop. Also, the technology is brand new and will only improve.

[Obbe]

Cellulosic ethanol

Hemp stems are 80% hurds (pulp by-product after the hemp fiber is removed from the plant). Hemp hurds are 77% cellulose.

[Slave of the Beast]

Hemp stems are 80% hurds (pulp by-product after the hemp fiber is removed from the plant). Hemp hurds are 77% cellulose.

I haven't read the full PDF, I presume you have, and you're saying that in relation to ethanol production, hemp is preferable to switchgrass?

[Obbe]

you're saying that in relation to ethanol production, hemp is preferable to switchgrass?

Obviously, I wouldn't know. But, I have a rough idea.

Assuming that cellulosic ethanol production has something to do with cellulose ... I looked up the cellulose content of switchgrass, and according to this (http://www.tsec-biosys.ac.uk/index.php?p=8&t=1&ss=5), switchgrass is only 50% cellulose at best.

Also, the hemp hurds which are 77% cellulose are a by-product of the hemp industry. This means we wouldn't need separate crops for fiber and crops for cellulose, since they could both be provided at once. We don't need to take over the good farm land used for food crops, because industrial hemp can grow in the worst soils. And if we did start mass producing hemp for fuel, we would have an excess of hemp seeds, which contain more protein than any other plant source, omega-3's, and other good things for humans. More food, with todays shortages, sounds like great thing to me.

So in fact, I'm saying not only saying that hemp could potentially be better then switchgrass at cellulosic ethanol production, I'm saying that it's one of the smartest fucking options we have.

[pyro110]

damn just had a flashback to soc101

[StealthyRacoons]

Well there are a few major problems with producing biodiesel one it takes alot of land area to grow enough we are talking the entire middle part of the US growing to make enough fuel to feed the US. Food prices are already going up because of the ethanol in gas law. Now the process to make the fuel uses much more energy then is contained in the fuel its self. Then Finally its less efficient, the fuel holds less stores energy then gasoline so less power.

[monks3080]

But the fuel used to harvest it makes it skewed.

It's apparent you haven't read anything on this besides on totse, just quit while you're a little behind.

But you yourself have forgotten to take into consideration the possibility of renewable energy sources being used to power the harvest and transport it to the consumer, making this neutrality possible.

[asdfghasdfgh]

For every 1 gallon from biofuel, doesnt it take 6 gallons of regular fuel to make?

[Real.PUA]

For every 1 gallon from biofuel, doesnt it take 6 gallons of regular fuel to make?

No. Some studies showed that corn ethanol gave neutral or slightly negative energy return, but switch grass ethanol gives 540% energy currently. The efficiency is expected to improve greatly as this is still generation 0 technology.

[KwinnieFuckingBogan]

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual_ToC.html

There's a trail of articles through here, dated or not they're alright.

[crackhead]

Switchgrass is the way to go!

[Dark_Magneto]

Rapeseed and palm oil are excellent sources of biofuel as well.

Biofuels are great stuff when done at a sane level to be sure, but there's no way they can provide fuel on a worldwide or nationwide scale for large industrial nations.

[jewandproud]

I dont understand why oil companies don't just diversify and supply more fuels. Obviously they could afford it, and then they'd have an unlimited source of profits because when oil runs out they could just sell hydrogen fuel or whatever alternatives they want. Or they could run huge public relations campaigns like cigarette companies do. Show how they invest tons of money into making the world greener and cleaner. I suppose I'd just run the businesses differently. I'd want to have a hold on as many of the fuel markets as possible. If one company started monopolizing on some other fuel type then the others would quickly follow suit, I think. Just a thought.

Thats smart... give oil companies monopolies on our lives for centuries to come!

[Merdinus]

http://www.theaircar.com/acf/air-cars/air-cars.html

Now, have truck stops and the like with solar powered air compressors. stops everyone having their little whingh about 'ugliness' of solar cells(who ever thought a gas station was pretty?), solves the problem of the ridiculously slow speeds of solar powered cars. RACE CARS ALREADY USE THIS TECHNOLOGY.

[Dark_Magneto]

Problem with air compressors is they are highly inefficient. You'd be better off using the power to charge a good battery.

[Merdinus]

Problem with air compressors is they are highly inefficient. You'd be better off using the power to charge a good battery.

But that was my point anyway. Yeah, there are better, more efficient ways, but people want it faster, harder, longer. Tis is the solution for a selfish world that doesn't believe in public transport.

and yeah, open season on trolling me =]

[ZeroMalarki]

Contrary to popular belief, the biofuel thing isn't causing food to go up so much, its the price of oil making deliveries more expensive. There is no shortage of food.

[Merdinus]

Contrary to popular belief, the biofuel thing isn't causing food to go up so much, its the price of oil making deliveries more expensive. There is no shortage of food.

But there could be. Do we want to get into a state where we have to choose food or fuel? At least if we make lots of different forms of transport, we'd have multiple redundancies.

[gforce]

Contrary to popular belief, the biofuel thing isn't causing food to go up so much, its the price of oil making deliveries more expensive. There is no shortage of food.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25530583/

And i quote
"The basket of food prices examined in the study rose by 140 percent between 2002 and February 2008. The report estimated that higher energy and fertilizer prices accounted for an increase of only 15 percent, while biofuels have been responsible for a 75 percent jump over that period. "


And if there is no shortage of food then why are grain stores at extremely low levels with consumption being above production for several years?

[Merdinus]

It'd be interesting to see any totseans actually taking a stand on this kind of thing and buying a vehicle powered by some alternative energy source. Is there anyone on here who owns such a thing?

[Prometheus]

Rather than a general statement saying either food or fuel, it would be more appropriate to point out that certian foods would be worth a greater quanity of fuel. It takes what, 10 pounds of grain to get 1 pound of meat. People may have to go vegitarian in order to fuel their cars.

[Prometheus]

It'd be interesting to see any totseans actually taking a stand on this kind of thing and buying a vehicle powered by some alternative energy source. Is there anyone on here who owns such a thing?

My primary mode of transportation does in fact use organics for fuel. They're called my legs. And by extension, my bike is also organicly fueled.

[Dark_Magneto]

Best alternative fuels are bicycle, walking, and electricity.

[Real.PUA]

^None of which are fuels.

[Dark_Magneto]

Exactly.

Oh, and I forgot conservation.

We could easily conserve as much oil as we import from Saudi Arabia.

[pharmamedic]

Biofuel, why it's a bad thing:
1. Plain and simple, bio-fuels now take more energy to create than they actually produce.
2. They are less efficient than our current petroleum based fuels.
3. They pollute more.
4. Ethanol production is currently reliant on corn. Corn prices have already risen dramatically per bushel which hurts many lower income households directly and indirectly. When taking into consideration the outrageous amount of products we take from corn, the increase in corn prices would raise prices of it's byproducts.
5. Bio-diesel requires a process called transesterification, which basically replaces one group (an alkoxy group) from an ester with an alcohol. This process requires either ethanol or methanol, both of which need to be produced for any mass production of the fuels. Mass production of alcohols for fuel creation will create the same problem as in number 4.

They're a good idea, and while everyone is still sucking on gasoline, biofuels are very economical, however, in my opinion, they really wouldn't do well on a mass scale.

-medic

[crackhead]

Biofuel, why it's a bad thing:
1. Plain and simple, bio-fuels now take more energy to create than they actually produce.
2. They are less efficient than our current petroleum based fuels.
3. They pollute more.
4. Ethanol production is currently reliant on corn. Corn prices have already risen dramatically per bushel which hurts many lower income households directly and indirectly. When taking into consideration the outrageous amount of products we take from corn, the increase in corn prices would raise prices of it's byproducts.
5. Bio-diesel requires a process called transesterification, which basically replaces one group (an alkoxy group) from an ester with an alcohol. This process requires either ethanol or methanol, both of which need to be produced for any mass production of the fuels. Mass production of alcohols for fuel creation will create the same problem as in number 4.

They're a good idea, and while everyone is still sucking on gasoline, biofuels are very economical, however, in my opinion, they really wouldn't do well on a mass scale.

-medic

1. It would be like that for a while
2. Biofuels are atleast renewable
3. No they dont
4. Switchgrass and algae biofuels are being developed
5. I like pie

[Real.PUA]

Biofuel, why it's a bad thing:
1. Plain and simple, bio-fuels now take more energy to create than they actually produce.


If you had read the thread, you might have seen that switch grass ethanol currently gives a 540% return on energy.

[gforce]

Everyone seems to be shouting about algae so i have a few questions for them.

What kind of land are you going to use to keep them in? Obviously it needs to be a lake or pond of some sort that is very very large? Areas with lots of sunlight like deserts would of course produce the best results but then how are you going to get billions of litres of water needed? Of course you will have to keep on topping up the pond(s) everyday because of evaporation and this also presents another problem, if your planning on using sea water (obvious choice because it is abundant) for the source of water after a short period of time all your going to be left with is a very very salty lake that can not grow anything.


Oh and an energy return of 1:5.4 still is not that great in comparison to other traditional fuels

[Real.PUA]

It still generation 0 technology. It will get a lot more efficient.

[gforce]

It still generation 0 technology. It will get a lot more efficient.

So how long before it can be implemented on a large scale to significantly replace the use of crude oil? (I was going to go on a long rant about blind faith in technology and that 'they' will solve all our problems but i can't be bothered right now...)

But you still have to address the simple issues I very briefly outlined in the post above. The simple fact is that fossil fuels which are the accumulation of millions of years of solar energy are being consumed at a very very high rate.

Take oil, the world uses a bit over 1 cubic mile a year of the stuff. Thats alot of energy and is kind of hard to imagine. So here is a handy diagram for what 1 cubic mile represents.

http://www.drmillslmu.com/peakoi23.jpg

The 3 gorges dam is 18GW, Nuclear plant 1.1GW, Coal plant 500MW, 100m span turbine rated at 1.65MW and the solar panel is a 2.1 KW home system.

Of course to find out what you need if you only had 1 year just times all the numbers by 50. In comparison to all the existing installed infrastructure these numbers are absolutely massive

And this is excluding all the coal and natural gas we also use.

[pharmamedic]

If you had read the thread, you might have seen that switch grass ethanol currently gives a 540% return on energy.

While production ethanol of switch grass is a good idea, i'm talking mass scale, fuel resting upon switch grass as we were 10 years ago on petroleum based fuels.

Now it will be interesting to see how we will fertilize the Vast amount of grass without petroleum based fertilizers. The entire way we grow is based upon fertilizers. If you yourself grow your switchgrass "organically" and keep it small scale, I would not be surprised to see a working system.
But with the way we grow, consume, and everything in between, I'd be shocked to see a current biofuel work. I don't know, I'm probably a little underinformed. But someone's gotta argue against this biofuel hippies! :P

[Mc. Black]

Biofuels, such as biodiesel, and ethanol are a waste of time and resources. It is ignorant in my opinion to grow food, and plants for usage just as fuel. We should be searching for other alternatives to move our selfs around, and not grow crops for fuel.

I do believe in the case of French fryer grease, if it can get a second use out of it, as fuel, it is a great thing, for it is a byproduct. But to grow something to waste it as fuel? waste…

Yeah, its pretty lame, but in the long term it will also make population start to drop, as it makes food more expensive and some people will not afford it.

Yeah, its grim, but those people are and will always be th same retards who keep fucking and having children like rabbits and have nothing to feed them with, therefore extreme poverty, illegal migration, crimes....

[Mc. Black]

Ive got some good biofuels:

-Talibans.
-Chechens.
-Those rebels in Colombia.
-Religious zealots.
-Street thugs.
-Ass Gas.

Also, prisons are well stocked in biofuel.

[danzig]

Drought.

[wolfy_9005]

Electric Cars.

Make more nuclear power stations and use them to power the cars.

[danzig]

Electric Cars.

Make more nuclear power stations and use them to power the cars.

work on fusion.

[wolfy_9005]

With hydrogen or what?

[danzig]

With hydrogen or what?

i think they use deuterium. but fusion power makes nuclear power look like a hand crank. and we could figure it out. i bet a single fusion plant could supply north americas power requirements.

[wolfy_9005]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium

heavy hydrogen

[danzig]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium

heavy hydrogen

huh. never knew that.

[Prometheus]

If we can get ahold of some helium 3 (rare helium isotope, but common enough on the moon), we could have fusion power in short order. The difference being that fusion using straight deturium churns out particles that burn out the electromagnets after less than 5 minutes of reactor usage.

A bit off topic, but worth pointing out I think.

[Dark_Magneto]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20080503/biofuels_compare.gif

Crop Residue May Be Too Valuable to Harvest for Biofuels (http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/542626/)

[ventrman]

I didn't say we had a food shortage but we will do if we convert a large portion of our crops to fuel.

Bullshit, All we have to do is to increase production of crops.

[Dark_Magneto]

You'd need a land mass the size of the entire African continent just to supply U.S. fuel demands alone. Also keep in mind that not all land is arable.

Biofuels is an either/or thing. The more food tnat gets used making fuel, the less there is available for consumption. We can only grow so much food per year.

We're already at a point where grain stocks have been steadily declining. The world is 1 bad harvest away from mass starvation.

[gforce]

Bullshit, All we have to do is to increase production of crops.

Do you realise how much land and hence food is needed to even replace a modest amount of our fuel consumption?

Just 2 facts. The amount of grain needed to fill one fuel tank is enough to feed someone for a year. If the entire US grain harvest (largest in the world) was all converted to biofuel it would satisfy only 17% of US demand.

There is a limit to how much food we can produce and this century there are going to be alot of issues pushing down on food production such as climate change, aquifer depletion and soil erosion.

[Dark_Magneto]

Then we also have the problem of phosphate depletion. Phosphorous is essential for plant growth and there are no alternatives for it. At the rate we consume phosphorous, especially with biofuels, supplies of phosphorous are expected to deplete within a single generation.

[ventrman]

Do you realise how much land and hence food is needed to even replace a modest amount of our fuel consumption?

Just 2 facts. The amount of grain needed to fill one fuel tank is enough to feed someone for a year. If the entire US grain harvest (largest in the world) was all converted to biofuel it would satisfy only 17% of US demand.

There is a limit to how much food we can produce and this century there are going to be alot of issues pushing down on food production such as climate change, aquifer depletion and soil erosion.

You did know didn't you that the government pays farmers subsidies not to grow crops in order for there not to be as much food on the market .
It is time to end that practice.

[gforce]

You did know didn't you that the government pays farmers subsidies not to grow crops in order for there not to be as much food on the market .
It is time to end that practice.

Well possible not time to end it as again we are refusing to accept that the world is finite and we have to live on the planet with other life forms which we depend on. Placing our needs above any needs of the environment.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7538102.stm
The EU had rules which dictated how much land needed to be set aside (10%) for wildlife and now they have removed them so farmers can grow on all their land. This will increase the cereal harvest by 13.5M tonnes or 5.2% this year. Quite alot but certainly not enough to convert a significant portion of our oil consumption to biofuels.

[2600hz]

It really isnt, i worked in a lab working on a switchgrass project, hybrigene in kingston RI. its a pretty decent plan to say the least its just a problem with the development of enzymes to break down the cellulose into ethanol.

currently we use a chemical treatment that sucks balls, but is still better than corn by a long shot. the energy input vs output is pretty asstounding though in swichgrass considering it grows all over the us.
anywho it really dosent suck at all, its acctualy pretty decent its just the starting materials.

Oh and btw>corn we eat=/= corn for synth/biofuels at all it acctualy would be a grain, like we use to feed cattle(which is a bit ridiculous when you think of the energy food flow.

[Nietzche]

to make bio fuel is kinda hard cause youve got to get lye, but its easy and cheap since thats about the only thing you've gotta buy. if you have the fast food fryer grease you have to titrate it.

most of the crap i got was from the junk yard.

[Phanatic]

People may have to go vegitarian in order to fuel their cars.

I'll take my meat and my bicycle, thank you.

[Kleenex]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20080503/biofuels_compare.gif

Crop Residue May Be Too Valuable to Harvest for Biofuels (http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/542626/)

Oh man that algae biofuel looks tasty....... Make it happen scientists!

[KING G]

The other day I was watching a documentry, they were talking about this new fuel that was basically regular oil except extracted from genetically modified algea, the algea use as much carbon as they would produce by burning. Interesting, really, I wonder where I can buy stock in the research company they were talking about.

Edit: Damn, I see I am WAY too late for this thread :P

[zebra head]

Biofuel is bad because it puts off more pollutants into the atmosphere than traditional oil based gasoline. Biofuel is good, because it doesn't require oil, which keeps the dollars in the nation using said biofuel. Bad for environment, good for economy.

[Dark_Magneto]

Biofuel is good, because it doesn't require oil...

Any kind of industrial-scale farming uses heavy petroleum inputs.