why magick works

[ArmsMerchant]

And other secrets of the universe. . . .

First of all--if you think that fringe metaphysics in general (i.e, shamanism, psychism, past lives, stuff like that) and magick (i.e., changing ordinary reality by extraordinary means) is totally bunk and your mind is made up and you do not wish to be confused with facts, read no further. Like we used to say down on the farm, "don't ever try to teach a pig to sing--it wastes your time and it annoys the pig". So just quit right now, before you get even more annoyed.

Second, the "secrets" thing is kind of tongue in cheek. There are no Great Secrets, no hidden arcana that will somehow instantly make your life easier and your face clear up. My wife and I have dealt for years with clients seeking The Great Secret--the secret is, there isn't any. What I will be recounting here can be found in any number of books, and isn't new--shamans and mystics have been saying much the same thing for centuries, and often getting hanged, burned at the stake, or nailed to a cross for their trouble.

Here is the thing about the universe. Our local universe, anyway--there are others. In this universe, you do not always get what you want, but you get what you need. Always. The universe is like this awesome vending machine that has been programmed to give you what you choose--NOT what you want. if you say to the universe, "I want this or that," the Universe in effect says, "Fine, go ahead and want it." If you choose something, and choose wisely and with the full force of your will and attention, you will get it.

You often get what you fear, because the act of focussing on it tends to draw it to you. Conversely, you often push away what you expect. There is only the present, and as long as you expect something, you won't get it. At a less esoteric level, expectations work against us, since they set us up for disappointment. It is far more highly evolved to live with uncertainty, and embrace it. (Note--this is WAY easier said than done.) There is a divinity that shapes our ends, rough-hew them how we will.

Does this mean that what you get is always what you chose? Opinions vary on this issue. Some say, yes, absolutely. Others say, no, there is a certain amount of randomness in the scheme of things. More and more, I am leaning towards the notion that our free will is absolute, that everything that happens to us is a direct result of a choice we have made. Then again, Lily Tomlin may have been on to something when she said "Reality is a collective hunch."

I do know that the universe is quite flexible. There is room for many opinions. Or as the Nazz put it, "In my father's house is many mansions." Or something like like that.

But I digress.When you do magick, you are telling the universe in a very strong way what you choose. It is generally based on the medieval doctrine of signatures--that is, like affects like. (More recently, like a mere hundred or so years ago, the term "sympathetic magick" was coined. Same thing.) The classic example of this is foxglove, the herb. It has little flowers that are heart-shaped, so herbalists for hundreds of years used it to treat (you guessed it) heart disease. Recently, medical science discovered that foxglove is a source of the drug digitalis, the treatment of choice for heart disease.

The magick I do is either quick and easy stone magick, or affirmative magick (not to be confused with affirmative action). For instance, I always carry agate for protection--it is banded, the idea being that the bands symbolize armor, or protection of some sort or another. Carnelian agate for physical protection, blue lace for psychic protection, and so on. (There is an additional correspondence at work here--the colors of the stones refer to the colors of the various chakras.)

I might add that this is neither new nor original. The ancient Greeks used amethyst for protection against toxicity of one sort or another--rich old Greeks had goblets carved from amethyst, thinking it would protect them from not only poison, but also the toxic effects of alcohol--the very name is Greek for "against drunkenness." The ancient Romans were very big on carnelian, and carnelian jewelry or amulets are often found in Roman tombs

Affirmative magick is another term for affirmations. The modern affirmation thing was started by a guy called Coue in the twenties--his basic one was "Every day, in every way, I am getting better and better." You repeat this over and over again until it feels like you are wearing a groove in your brain. Does it always work? Of course not--neither do aspirin or brain surgery. But for me, it works often enough to be worth while.

Of course, you can use magick to help yourself or others. You can place curses if you want to. But it is not a good idea, mainly because we are All One--curse me, in the long run, you curse yourself. Better--and more fun, actually--to bless everyone. How do you do this? It's easy, you don't need any holy water or anyone. Just focus your will and attention on someone, and send out a thought like"Bless you--be happy and healthy and prosperous." It is fun for me to note how often when I do this, the blessed one blesses me right back.

A few final words on the subject--yeah, I know the spelling "magick" looks sort of pretentious. I use it only to distinguish it from stage magic or illusionism. Also, many of us in the field are sort of down on ceremonial mages--they are like the Martha Stewarts of metaphysics, can be really annoying. But their stuff works well, mainly because the amount of effort and nit-picky shit (i.e., using a wand made of a certain wood, gathered at a certain phase of the moon, cut with a special ceremonial tool) serves to concentrate the will and attention.

More and more of late, however, I find that I have to do nothing at all. As I grow closer to my goal of spiritual perfection, total inner-directedness, total unity consciousness, total transcendence of fear and manifestation of universal unconditional love, I find that more and more, the entire universe conspires to bring me what I desire. (Re-reading this, it looks kinda lah-di-dah, like I think I's something special. Truth is, we are all special in our own ways, and no one is more "special" than anyone else, the Special Olympic notwithstanding. Even Jesus said as much--"All these things I have done, ye shall do also--all these and more.".) Or as he aslo said--"Ask and it shall be given unto thee; seek and ye shall find; knock, and the door will be opened."

However, the illusions of materialism and separateness are seductive, and in recent days, the universe (or God--same thing) keeps throwing hints at me which I resolutely keep ignoring. As Chopra opnce put it, spirituality is 99 percent repitition. Becoming enlightened is not like, say, getting vaccinated or learning a secret handshake. You have to keep at it with diligance.

[Dream of the iris]

So, you're saying not to "want" but to "choose"? But isn't desire the same thing as wanting? If I "want" to be a famous chef for example, I just focus energy (thoughts) until it manifest itself?

[baliente]

"Want" implies that it's something you don't have and need to aquire.

"Choose" is implying that you've already made the official decision, therefore it will happen.




Is that what you're getting at?

[Otsego_Amigo]

good read, thanks.

[Graah]

Second, the "secrets" thing is kind of tongue in cheek. There are no Great Secrets, no hidden arcana that will somehow instantly make your life easier and your face clear up. My wife and I have dealt for years with clients seeking The Great Secret--the secret is, there isn't any. What I will be recounting here can be found in any number of books, and isn't new--shamans and mystics have been saying much the same thing for centuries, and often getting hanged, burned at the stake, or nailed to a cross for their trouble.

What makes you so sure? Many things "written in any number of books" have turned out to be wrong. Maybe there is some huge secret, but those who have discovered it don't feel like telling us.


Here is the thing about the universe. Our local universe, anyway--there are others. In this universe, you do not always get what you want, but you get what you need. Always. The universe is like this awesome vending machine that has been programmed to give you what you choose--NOT what you want. If you say to the universe, "I want this or that," the Universe in effect says, "Fine, go ahead and want it." If you choose something, and choose wisely and with the full force of your will and attention, you will get it.

Train wreck. First of all, "need" is a completely subjective term. There is no need without a subjective source. The universe isn't subjective. There is no concept of walking without the concept of feet.

And don't be naive. Do you think some little girl who has done absolutely nothing wrong to the world CHOSE to be raped? You can not choose things. We are still human, and you can aim in a general direction for your future, but I don't think you can specifically choose it 100% of the time.



You often get what you fear, because the act of focussing on it tends to draw it to you. Conversely, you often push away what you expect. There is only the present, and as long as you expect something, you won't get it. At a less esoteric level, expectations work against us, soince they set us up for disappointment. It is far more highly evolved to live with uncertainty, and embrace it. There is a divinity that shapes our ends, rough-hew them how we will.


I think you overestimate how much what we think matters. If I drop a brick, no matter how much you hope, choose, want, desire, fear, or expect otherwise to happen, it won't. Do you deny that everything that happens is a simple consequence of physics, even down to the subatomic level?


I do know that the universe is quite flexible. There is room for many opinions. Or as the Nazz put it, "In my father's house is many mansions." Or osmething like like that.



I'm not quite sure what you meant here, or what the saying means.



You are chemicals. What you are thinking right now is chemicals. Unless you are claiming modern physics is an illusion, most of what you said is bunk because it directly contradicts it.

[Dream of the iris]

People used to think the world was flat ^^^

[kurdt318]

So, you're saying not to "want" but to "choose"? But isn't desire the same thing as wanting? If I "want" to be a famous chef for example, I just focus energy (thoughts) until it manifest itself?

Want and Choose are completely different things. If you want something it's usually just a passing desire, something that comes and goes. Whereas if you choose something its constant and won't change no matter the situation. So choosing is much harder to do then to want.

[ytter_man2]

dont forget that simply living is not enough for a human being. or we'd all be terry schavio.

i dont have any epic words of wisdom, but the destination of the journey is fought with peril and joy. how you react to each situation is the defining point.

[Thunderhammer]

Thank you for refreshing my memory, i had forgotten some important aspects that you have re-awakened.

I got bogged down in psychology without realising i was being distracted.

[ArmsMerchant]

"Want" implies that it's something you don't have and need to aquire.

"Choose" is implying that you've already made the official decision, therefore it will happen.

Is that what you're getting at?

Corectamundo, as the Fonz might say.

Thank you for clearing that up.

[Kooper0]

It works because you used the archaic spelling, and therefore it must work.

[Thunderhammer]

It works because you used the archaic spelling, and therefore it must work.

Not exactly, if it wasn't for the 'archaic spelling' (or 'correct' spelling, tbh.) i doubt this thread would have reached the second page.

[truckfixr]

Why magic works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWo8fv2ZNpw

Sorry Arms. I couldn't help myself ;)

[AngryFemme]

"Every day, in every way, I am getting better and better." You repeat this over and over again until it feels like you are wearing a groove in your brain. Does it always work? Of course not--neither do aspirin or brain surgery. But for me, it works often enough to be worth while.

I can vouch for this! If I didn't constantly clap myself on the back and shout inward ATTAGIRL's at myself each day, I'd be pretty fucking angsty and not much fun to be around.

I once programmed the banner "You ... Rock!" on my cellphone, as a sort of affirmation/motivation to keep on keepin' on, even when I didn't feel like it. It made me grin every time I opened my phone, and that's where the magic was for me. Self-solicited chuckling makes for a happier day.

[qazwsx]

to AM or anyone..

after thinking about the idea that we're all one consciousness, and realizing that if this were true a lot of pursuit on Earth would be meaningless, I wondered if love is just varying degrees of independence..

for instance, when you're a kid you feel a strong connection with your parents, because they're always there for you. As you grow into your teen years this connection is not what it used to be; you are very used to always being around your parents.

I've also taken powerful drugs and have felt totally independent.. I felt like people were worth respecting and helping, but I was externally belligerent and loaded.. it's hard to describe exactly how I felt besides saying it was just 1337


does that make sense at all?

[ArmsMerchant]

^In ultimate reality, we ARE All One--but each of us is an individuation of the divine, each of us is unique--God is, among other things, creativity, and creativity does not repeat itself. We all have different gifts, different strengths and weaknesses, but in the final analysis, no one is better or worse than anyone else.

As far as love goes, most people have no idea of what it really is, mistaking sexual attraction, co-dependency, limerance, or infatuation with love. Love, to paraphrase Shakespeare, does not alter where it alteration finds--it is an ever-fixed star, which looks on tempests and is unmoved.

[danzig]

I can vouch for this! If I didn't constantly clap myself on the back and shout inward ATTAGIRL's at myself each day, I'd be pretty fucking angsty and not much fun to be around.

I once programmed the banner "You ... Rock!" on my cellphone, as a sort of affirmation/motivation to keep on keepin' on, even when I didn't feel like it. It made me grin every time I opened my phone, and that's where the magic was for me. Self-solicited chuckling makes for a happier day.

you make me sick, you putrid reprobate. what you need is nice tall glass of "not repulsive" because every time i think of you i throw up out of sheer horror at your sheer vileness. the thought of thinking of considering devoting a second of time to you is so repugnant, it makes eating dog shit seem like surf and turf. if you were a wart, or tumor, or whatever other fitting biological parallel you want, i would excise you with a dull rusty spoon if thats all i had. the thought of any vague proximity to you mortifies me. i would gladly take death first.

[Yoh]

I think you overestimate how much what we think matters. If I drop a brick, no matter how much you hope, choose, want, desire, fear, or expect otherwise to happen, it won't. Do you deny that everything that happens is a simple consequence of physics, even down to the subatomic level?


I'm not quite sure what you meant here, or what the saying means.



You are chemicals. What you are thinking right now is chemicals. Unless you are claiming modern physics is an illusion, most of what you said is bunk because it directly contradicts it.

On the contrary, the brick will drop because you CHOSE to drop it. It is also those situations that we choose that determine what happens to us.

Yes our earthy element may be that of chemicals, flesh and bone. But our body is not our entire made up self, yet is just a part that hosts and intermingles with our mind and soul so we may be a part of the material world.

[AngryFemme]

you make me sick, you putrid reprobate. what you need is nice tall glass of "not repulsive" because every time i think of you i throw up out of sheer horror at your sheer vileness. the thought of thinking of considering devoting a second of time to you is so repugnant, it makes eating dog shit seem like surf and turf. if you were a wart, or tumor, or whatever other fitting biological parallel you want, i would excise you with a dull rusty spoon if thats all i had. the thought of any vague proximity to you mortifies me. i would gladly take death first.

I'm so touched that you devoted an entire paragraph to me <3

Does this mean we'll never get to take a long walk in the park together while holding hands?

[danzig]

I'm so touched that you devoted an entire paragraph to me <3

Does this mean we'll never get to take a long walk in the park together while holding hands?

yes...







DO YOU LIKE ME

CHECK YES OR NO

[_] YES - - - [_] NO

PS I LIKE YOU

[Seriously]

the thought of thinking of considering devoting a second of time to you is so repugnant, it makes eating dog shit seem like surf and turf.

I'm guessing it took more than a second to write all that . . . so how much dog shit did you eat?

[danzig]

I'm guessing it took more than a second to write all that . . . so how much dog shit did you eat?

:(

too much.

[ArmsMerchant]

you make me sick, you putrid reprobate. what you need is nice tall glass of "not repulsive" because every time i think of you i throw up out of sheer horror at your sheer vileness. the thought of thinking of considering devoting a second of time to you is so repugnant, it makes eating dog shit seem like surf and turf. if you were a wart, or tumor, or whatever other fitting biological parallel you want, i would excise you with a dull rusty spoon if thats all i had. the thought of any vague proximity to you mortifies me. i would gladly take death first.

Vile and inappropriate.

[danzig]

Vile and inappropriate.

Only too true.

i was bored, and the name "angryfemme" made me remember some dyke in high school that i hate with a absolute passion. see, she got me in trouble for essentially not buying a "gay ribbon", a rainbow tag. she told on me, and lied, and i had to take counseling for "intolerance". she hates me because i was always beating the hell out of her in debates. and she hates males in general.

so i expressed my feelings towards her, using angryfemme as a false dyke. unless she is a dyke, but a false other dyke in that case.

see? project the negativity, and destroy it! its amazing! almost like psychological voodoo-dolls!

[Dragon Slayer]

^In ultimate reality, we ARE All One--but each of us is an individuation of the divine, each of us is unique--God is, among other things, creativity, and creativity does not repeat itself. We all have different gifts, different strengths and weaknesses, but in the final analysis, no one is better or worse than anyone else.

As far as love goes, most people have no idea of what it really is, mistaking sexual attraction, co-dependency, limerance, or infatuation with love. Love, to paraphrase Shakespeare, does not alter where it alteration finds--it is an ever-fixed star, which looks on tempests and is unmoved.

Can you please explain to me the logic behind the belief that we are somehow interconnected?

[-SpectraL]

Of course, there are many, many charlatans out there, but that does not negate the fact that there are still some who can produce real magic. The mind is capable of many fascinating, powerful and unbelievable things, and we have only yet just begun to unravel its mysteries.

And he saith unto them, Because of your little faith: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Watch closely:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goHivt1TvbQ

[AngryFemme]

i was bored, and the name "angryfemme" made me remember some dyke in high school that i hate with a absolute passion.

Sorry to conjur up such negative memories, danzig. I'd suggest letting all that negative energy go out the window, else that angry dyke in high school has won by getting the best of you.

I'm not angry. I'm completely hetero. And most of all - I forgive you for being such a worm.

:)

[-SpectraL]

Wasn't that the most amazing bit of magic ever? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goHivt1TvbQ

Sure looked to me like an honest crowd, and a standard street environment. How'd he pull it off?

What, are they all CGI or something? They looked pretty god-damned real to me, like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goHivt1TvbQ

Notice how the hands never touch the chocolate squares:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5076B96522BF3005


This one is very strange:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaosJTAtLzk&mode=related&search=

[AngryFemme]

I wish I could understand the language.

Are you sure that wasn't an asian ad for a fast-food commercial?

[-SpectraL]

I wish I could understand the language.

Are you sure that wasn't an asian ad for a fast-food commercial?

Not a commercial. It's a magician named Cyril.

[danzig]

Sorry to conjur up such negative memories, danzig. I'd suggest letting all that negative energy go out the window, else that angry dyke in high school has won by getting the best of you.

I'm not angry. I'm completely hetero. And most of all - I forgive you for being such a worm.

:)

no way man. all that negative energy inflates me, like a balloon.

why be something you're not?

[Bukujutsu]

I agree with danzig. This post:

You make me sick, you putrid reprobate. what you need is nice tall glass of "not repulsive" because every time i think of you i throw up out of sheer horror at your sheer vileness. the thought of thinking of considering devoting a second of time to you is so repugnant, it makes eating dog shit seem like surf and turf. if you were a wart, or tumor, or whatever other fitting biological parallel you want, i would excise you with a dull rusty spoon if thats all i had. the thought of any vague proximity to you mortifies me. i would gladly take death first.

was awesome. Honestly, there's no excuse for sensitivity. Negativity can be a wonderful thing. I see his "negative" posts as passionate and entertaining. After reading his post about that dyke he used to know I wanted to find her and murder her with my bare hands.

[Yoh]

"I agree with danzig. This post:

You make me sick, you putrid reprobate. what you need is nice tall glass of "not repulsive" because every time i think of you i throw up out of sheer horror at your sheer vileness. the thought of thinking of considering devoting a second of time to you is so repugnant, it makes eating dog shit seem like surf and turf. if you were a wart, or tumor, or whatever other fitting biological parallel you want, i would excise you with a dull rusty spoon if thats all i had. the thought of any vague proximity to you mortifies me. i would gladly take death first.

was awesome. Honestly, there's no excuse for sensitivity. Negativity can be a wonderful thing. I see his "negative" posts as passionate and entertaining. After reading his post about that dyke he used to know I wanted to find her and murder her with my bare hands."


There is no need for that here and you're obviously doing that because you're bored and an asshole so gtfo.

[danzig]

There is no need for that here and you're obviously doing that because you're bored and an asshole so gtfo.

no need for what here?

[ArmsMerchant]

Um, is there any chance we could actually get back on topic?

[Townsend]

Um, is there any chance we could actually get back on topic?

Unfortunately, probably not...

[sh0x0rz3r]

Murphy's law explained.

Nice read.

[DuckWarri0r]

I doubt magick convinces the universe of shit. The universe doesn't care if you play with stones, or run around in circles til you fall over.

[DuckWarri0r]

I can vouch for this! If I didn't constantly clap myself on the back and shout inward ATTAGIRL's at myself each day, I'd be pretty fucking angsty and not much fun to be around.

I once programmed the banner "You ... Rock!" on my cellphone, as a sort of affirmation/motivation to keep on keepin' on, even when I didn't feel like it. It made me grin every time I opened my phone, and that's where the magic was for me. Self-solicited chuckling makes for a happier day.
Word, it is not the universe you should seek to change but yourself like duh obviously.

[Diamond Domino]

cool topic, although I have never witnessed magick done by others successfully, I have heard of things that creeped me out about occultism.

BTW, I live right by Meadow Lakes road...that place has got to have the highest concentration of stoners in a given area. It rocks.

[ArmsMerchant]

^Cool, stop by my stand sometime--I sell out of the Mazda van parked by the guy who sells four-wheelers and stuff, near the middle of the land and cabins strip, mile 48.5.

[ArmsMerchant]

[QUOTE=Dream of the iris;8542409]So, you're saying not to "want" but to "choose"? But isn't desire the same thing as wanting? QUOTE]

Not at all.

For instance, God wants nothing, but desires we have power, freedom, and grace--if we choose them.

[Star Wars Fan]

you make me sick, you putrid reprobate. what you need is nice tall glass of "not repulsive" because every time i think of you i throw up out of sheer horror at your sheer vileness. the thought of thinking of considering devoting a second of time to you is so repugnant, it makes eating dog shit seem like surf and turf. if you were a wart, or tumor, or whatever other fitting biological parallel you want, i would excise you with a dull rusty spoon if thats all i had. the thought of any vague proximity to you mortifies me. i would gladly take death first.

that is so mean and hateful a flame I saved it.

[Star Wars Fan]

I'm so touched that you devoted an entire paragraph to me <3

Does this mean we'll never get to take a long walk in the park together while holding hands?

why not

[ArmsMerchant]

However, I think it MIGHT be safe to assume that a blow job is out of the question.

[fishtea]

Armsmerchant your first statement there suggests that your not really sure of what your talking about. If you were sure about this stuff you wouldn't try to get rid of the skeptics from the beginning. Anyone who's for real will invite skeptics to investigate what they're saying and doing because they know without a doubt that what they're preaching is the truth and what they're doing is real.

Although I don't think you are you come across as being full of shit in alot of respects. Not judging what you say more how you say it. It's your general attitude.

That being said I can see theres lots of sense and wisdom in the stuff you talk about. This thread isn't an exception. I've seen from experience these very principles in action. In order to keep clear of shit situations we really do have to be careful what we wish for. I've ended up in shitty situations and looked back into the past and realized that I had actually been wanting these situations to come about and thinking about them alot and thinking how it would be good if this was the situation. Heres a really important lesson that I learned. NEVER make decisions and conjure up scenarios that you want to happen in life when comparing them to a shitty scenario. What happens is we're thinking about a shit aspect of our life then we think about a different scenario which is slightly better than how our life is now but what we don't realize at the time is that this situation is NOT desirable either so we shouldn't be wishing for it.

Heres an example. Lets say I'm getting the shit kicked out of me every day by a gang 20 Bikers or something. I then start thinking about how it would be much better if I was only being beaten up by 10 Bikers instead or maybe they aren't bikers. Lets say 10 Bums instead because they would be easier to fight. Well strangely enough we may just find ourselves in the future in a situation that we're not being beaten up by 20 bikers anymore but we are actually being beaten up by 10 bums and maybe these bums fight dirtier and carry weapons. This situation may seem more desirable than the one before but it is still a BAD situation.

Thats an extreme and simple scenario. The scenario's that have played out in my life were way more complex but they seem to follow those principles. When I start striving for and thinking about a scenario which is LESS BAD than the one I'm currently in I'm still thinking about negative situations and therefore I'm still bringing bad situations upon myself.

The trick is to think about situations that would be GOOD. Situations you'd like to be in. Make sure the situations you think about are truly the best they could possibly be. Don't visualize situations with errors and negative aspects just to make them more realistic in your mind. Visualize everything being perfect and then subconsciously you won't settle for shit times. You'll only settle for good times.

I think theres alot of truth to this view of life. Personally I would love if things were this way. If it is me alone that determines my fate and determines every thing that happens in my life. That would mean I'm solely responsible for every good and bad thing that has ever happened to me and I am responsible for everything that is to come. Wanting things to be this way obviously influences my outlook a bit (I tend to accept theories of this sort more readily) but I have observed these principles happening in my life over the years. Sometimes for the better but more often than not for the worse and it was solely because of that striving my LESS BAD situations mentality instead of striving for GOOD situations. What I've realized about all this is IT TAKES TIME. Patience is the key to change. Things don't always come when you need them in fact they rarely come in time so thats why planning ahead and striving for desirable situations beforehand is the way to go. Instead of only trying to change when things are bad we can be constantly striving towards changing everything in our lives for the better. That way things are always getting better and we are preparing ourselves for bad situations before they even happen.

In my opinion this is the way to live. Changing things to call forth GOOD situations rather than LESS BAD situations. Thats pretty fuckin philosophical of me. Obviously it appears that way because I'm the one that said it but I can see alot of sense and wisdom in what I just said. :)

[Vanhalla]

Hmmm....

I'm going to use magick to get some good cheap acid. :D

I'm going to do a 5 min visualization/mediation thing every day and see how it turns out.

[johnplywd]

Penn and Teller already answered this ?. Its on You Tube

[ArmsMerchant]

Armsmerchant your first statement there suggests that your not really sure of what your talking about. If you were sure about this stuff you wouldn't try to get rid of the skeptics from the beginning. Anyone who's for real will invite skeptics to investigate what they're saying and doing because they know without a doubt that what they're preaching is the truth and what they're doing is real.


In my opinion this is the way to live. Changing things to call forth GOOD situations rather than LESS BAD situations. Thats pretty fuckin philosophical of me. Obviously it appears that way because I'm the one that said it but I can see alot of sense and wisdom in what I just said. :)

Um, I'm not clear on what you mean here--first statement where? Oh, this thread, right? Pioint taken--I should probabluy eidt that, haviong grown up a bit since then.

I know, I can't "get rid" of sceptics. However, it seems fair to say right up front that if one is set in one's belief system and has no desire to change, there is no point in reading anything counter to that, less point still in responding to it, and STILL less point in my attempting to refute it.

Truth is truth. It cannot be proven or disproven. It just is. However, it does get, well, tiresome, to be repeatedly called a liar and a charlatan.

[OMr_duckO]

Um, I'm not clear on what you mean here--first statement where? Oh, this thread, right? Pioint taken--I should probabluy eidt that, haviong grown up a bit since then.

I know, I can't "get rid" of sceptics. However, it seems fair to say right up front that if one is set in one's belief system and has no desire to change, there is no point in reading anything counter to that, less point still in responding to it, and STILL less point in my attempting to refute it.

Truth is truth. It cannot be proven or disproven. It just is. However, it does get, well, tiresome, to be repeatedly called a liar and a charlatan.

I'll add to this by saying to the skeptics, that the only thing that's keeping them from knowing the truth, is the thought that they already know it.

[Star Wars Fan]

However, I think it MIGHT be safe to assume that a blow job is out of the question.

lol...

[l33t-haX0r]

Um, I'm not clear on what you mean here--first statement where? Oh, this thread, right? Pioint taken--I should probabluy eidt that, haviong grown up a bit since then.

I know, I can't "get rid" of sceptics. However, it seems fair to say right up front that if one is set in one's belief system and has no desire to change, there is no point in reading anything counter to that, less point still in responding to it, and STILL less point in my attempting to refute it.

Truth is truth. It cannot be proven or disproven. It just is. However, it does get, well, tiresome, to be repeatedly called a liar and a charlatan.

I don't think that you're a liar, I think that you are sincere about your beliefs.

But I also think that you are pretending that these things exist (magick, astrology etc...). It is obviously comforting for you to believe that these phenomenon are real for what ever reason. I don't mean to be patronising, there are plenty of good reasons why believing may be beneficial to you, but that does not make them true.

You complain that skeptics have their opinions set in stone. I really do not. Show me some magick, just some measurable effect and I will agree there is something there that needs to be looked at more closely. Show me some accurate predictions made with astrology or with a pendulum and I will take interest.

The problem is that all these phenomenon up on closer inspection fail to exist. I agree that there have been some tantalizing glimpses of things that we do not understand such as telepathy but putting these down to mystical made up forces or ancient stories is unessesary.

I don't know why you can't embrace the philosophical side of spirituallity without actually believing in the school yard stories made up to explain emotions or states of mind that might be experienced. As for phenomenon such as magick doesn't it at least both you slightly that there is no evidence for such a thing actually existing?

[OMr_duckO]

I don't think that you're a liar, I think that you are sincere about your beliefs.

But I also think that you are pretending that these things exist (magick, astrology etc...). It is obviously comforting for you to believe that these phenomenon are real for what ever reason. I don't mean to be patronising, there are plenty of good reasons why believing may be beneficial to you, but that does not make them true.

You complain that skeptics have their opinions set in stone. I really do not. Show me some magick, just some measurable effect and I will agree there is something there that needs to be looked at more closely. Show me some accurate predictions made with astrology or with a pendulum and I will take interest.

The problem is that all these phenomenon up on closer inspection fail to exist. I agree that there have been some tantalizing glimpses of things that we do not understand such as telepathy but putting these down to mystical made up forces or ancient stories is unessesary.

I don't know why you can't embrace the philosophical side of spirituallity without actually believing in the school yard stories made up to explain emotions or states of mind that might be experienced. As for phenomenon such as magick doesn't it at least both you slightly that there is no evidence for such a thing actually existing?

Theirs no reason to discount these kinds of things as bullshit, just because you haven't yet seen any concrete proof of it yet. Things we used to think were fucking ridiculous and impossible, are happening every day now. Modern physics says that everything is literally one and connected. That right there is some solid evidence that celestial objects can affect our human lives if we let them, or that we can affect things or communicate with other entities from a long distance or even without any local connections.

Theirs a fuckton of evidence that magic, astrology and such other things exist. There are reports of miracles and other crazy things happening every day, which science just doesn't understand yet. Like people suddenly being cured of terminal diseases or people moving objects with their mind.

I suggest you stop being so closed-minded and acknowledge that certain things like magic or astrology are possible if millions of people attest to it.

[l33t-haX0r]

I'm sorry but I don't accept things like stories from the Bible as evidence. If people can move objects with their minds why is there not one person, one person in six billion, that can come foward and show the world this ability.

Of course there are stories but does it not seem strange to you that as soon as some one tries to investigate these stories the results are inevitably not reproducible.

Don't mistake me for being close minded. I think there are phenomenon that have happened that require a good deal of explanation, maybe even things that have happened that science doesn't have an answer for yet. I can't say. But until you show me some evidence for these phenomenon then im not going to believe them.

Would you like to clarify which part of modern physics says that "everything is literally one". Don't get me wrong, celestial objects are interacting with out bodies all the time, but the theory that venus influences our love lives based on its position in the sky, and that only people born on certain dates are subject to this influence is just fiction.

[OMr_duckO]

I'm sorry but I don't accept things like stories from the Bible as evidence. If people can move objects with their minds why is there not one person, one person in six billion, that can come foward and show the world this ability.

Of course there are stories but does it not seem strange to you that as soon as some one tries to investigate these stories the results are inevitably not reproducible.

Don't mistake me for being close minded. I think there are phenomenon that have happened that require a good deal of explanation, maybe even things that have happened that science doesn't have an answer for yet. I can't say. But until you show me some evidence for these phenomenon then im not going to believe them.

Would you like to clarify which part of modern physics says that "everything is literally one". Don't get me wrong, celestial objects are interacting with out bodies all the time, but the theory that venus influences our love lives based on its position in the sky, and that only people born on certain dates are subject to this influence is just fiction.

Heres just a few convincing vids, don't feel like finding more evidence right now. If you somehow are able to disprove them with your incredible superior intelligence, then i'll find some more for you.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eNTxjxRu9eo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9nhFYADc9qQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZMj_bgzCUw8
http://youtube.com/watch?v=69GMr3RlpgU

I can't say that I know that celestial objects can affect our personal lives like people claim they, but their are records of it being used many times in the past to predict future events like the weather and stuff like that, with success. I wouldn't call it coincidence.

If your basing your skepticism on the validity of those stupid zodiacs you read in magazines, then stop. A real and accurate prediction as they claim of this sort can be done by a professional astrologist (which you call pseudo-scientists), but it's just very costly. So those zodiacs have no more validity those little fortunes on paper in fortune cookies.

I would reccomend you read a book explaining modern physics, then you'll understand what I meant. Preferably "The tao of physics" by Fritjof Capra, it explains the gist of it in terms even an elementary school kid can understand. Not saying your stupid or anything though.

"The way of the shaman" by Michael Harner would also be a good book for you. It gives personal reports of the author witnessing incontrovortertible proof of shamanic rituals causing rain even when their wasn't a single cloud in the sky.

[ArmsMerchant]

^For what it's worth, I will heartily second those two recommendations.

"Must reads" for anyone interested in metaphysics.

And to reiterate--AGAIN--I accept the validity of astrology, psychism, and a host of other stuff on the basis of personal observation and experience over the past 50+ years.

[l33t-haX0r]

Please, if you call those videos evidence then I think you are the one who is close minded. They are all easily faked. Why don't these people come foward and prove people like me wrong? The first video is performed by a known illusionist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearson%27s_floating_cigarette

The others could have been faked in similar ways. I'll look into spoon bending, Geller's got something to do with it so no doubt its bullshit.

"It is barely possible that a few of these paranormal claims might one day be verified by solid scientific data. But it would be foolish to accept them without adequate evidence." - Carl Sagan

I'll look into the books you mentioned.

[OMr_duckO]

Please, if you call those videos evidence then I think you are the one who is close minded. They are all easily faked. Why don't these people come foward and prove people like me wrong? The first video is performed by a known illusionist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearson%27s_floating_cigarette

The others could have been faked in similar ways. I'll look into spoon bending, Geller's got something to do with it so no doubt its bullshit.

"It is barely possible that a few of these paranormal claims might one day be verified by solid scientific data. But it would be foolish to accept them without adequate evidence." - Carl Sagan

I'll look into the books you mentioned.

How does it make me closed minded?

Ok, so even if the first one and the spoon bending one are fakes, what about the other ones? Mind explaining how those were faked?

Check out these too:

http://media.putfile.com/Telekinesis-54
http://media.putfile.com/telekinesis-2

You should be atleast open to the fact that it may be real (true until proven false, instead of false until proven true). It's not physically impossible, since we all have some kind of connection with the objects around us. If we didn't, you wouldn't be able to see your reflection in the mirror or even exist.

But atleast your open to learning more about this kind of stuff, if you really are going to read those books. Let us know what you think.

[Graah]

ArmsMerchant, you failed to respond to a single point I made. My response was on the first page. Read it and open up your mind a little.

[ArmsMerchant]

Okay, I read it, and it is pretty much the same-old, same-old mechanistic view of things known as the superstition of materialism. I have responded to this sort of thing before, time and time again.

Of course, things happen we do not want to happen. Zillions of reasons for this, but here are the two most cogent. We create our own reality, but we are all one--there is a LOT of stuff going on that I don't choose because I--and many like-minded others--are outnumbered by the fear-bound, unevolved masses who, collectively, do. Two, according to the law of attraction, we attract what we think about, whether or not we desire it. I thought this was clear.

What I didn't explicitly state, thinking it was rather obvious--and I try to eschew belaboring the obvious--is that thoughts have power, energy, whatever--but not all that much. When it comes to creating reality, words trump thoughts, and action trumps both of them.

[ArmsMerchant]

Revised, edited and bumped.